並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep05-%E7%B5%A6%E5%A4%A7%E5%AD%B8%E7%94%9F%E7%9A%84%E8%B2%A1%E5%AF%8C%E5%BB%BA%E8%AD%B0/id1555613181?i=1000514740979