並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/%E6%B3%95%E5%AE%A2%E8%A9%B1%E9%A1%8C-ep82-%E5%B4%94%E5%AA%BD%E5%AA%BD%E5%9F%BA%E9%87%91%E6%9C%83-%E5%B1%85%E4%BD%8F%E4%BF%9D%E6%AF%8D%E9%9B%9E%E5%A9%86%E7%B2%BE%E7%A5%9E-%E7%A7%9F%E9%87%91%E8%A3%9C%E8%B2%BC%E8%A7%A3%E6%B1%BA%E7%A7%9F%E5%B1%8B%E5%9B%B0%E5%A2%83/id1482463498?i=1000511208496